Comments on: Are the traditional ensembles worth continuing?

By: Catalysts & Connections - Evan Tobias » Blog Archive » Congratulations HASTAC Digital Media & Learning Grant Winners! Another look at technology based ensembles!

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 07:11:18 +0000

[…] discussion took place on this topic back in July of 2006 when the provocative question of “Are the traditional ensembles worth continuing?” was posed. Owen Bradley has recently been blogging about his students’ use of various […]

By: Catalysts & Connections - Evan Tobias » Blog Archive » An electronic music community in your school?

Fri, 20 Apr 2007 06:47:19 +0000

[…] also reminded me of a lengthy dialogue that took place several months ago regarding technology and music education in reference to […]

By: vincebates

vincebates — Thu, 30 Nov 2006 02:17:51 +0000

It makes a lot of sense to offer more than the traditional ensemble in schools. I’m glad you all are discussing these issues and putting them into practice. I’m wondering, though, are there any public middle-high schools that you know of that have effectively replaced the large ensembles with a student-choice/small ensemble sort of curriculum? I’m not talking about after-school clubs here, but something other than band, choir, and orchestra as the “core” of the “program”.

By: jabramo

jabramo — Tue, 08 Aug 2006 14:13:25 +0000

I think we need to think of the computers as another instrument the same way we think of a flute or percussion instruments; when we strip a saxophonist of her saxophone we don’t criticize her for not making “quality” music. I think we should think the same way with a musician that designates the computer as their main instrument; it is their way to create music. They aren’t any more or less of a musician than a violinist or a vocalist.

Or are they?…

By: Elizabeth Bewie

Elizabeth Bewie — Wed, 02 Aug 2006 20:57:45 +0000

This certainly is an interesting topic. In our technology class, we questioned whether a computer would ever replace the music teacher and students would learn that way (from a screen). Now we’re asking if a computer would ever replace an instrument; it’s scary for me to think about. Like ESchlegel, I think the human element in making music is key–it’s what makes it relatable for an audience. What if a member of the laptop orchestra needed to restart or had a technical problem? I suppose one would learn to deal with such an issue the same way an instrumentalist would recover if they missed a page turn or came in too early. I’m definitely freaked out by the elimination of traditional instruments and ensembles altogether, but think that slowly integrating these new sounds and new ensembles into school/community groups is realistic and important for students to be exposed to.

One final note…I’ve often said that if a singer/band sounds better live than on their CD, I know they can really sing/play. With technology, music is changing and these bands that I enjoy listening to, now REQUIRE the technology used in the studio when they perform live; if we strip away all the studio work and production on a band’s CD, we’re still left with some quality music, most likely. But if we strip it away from a laptop orchestra’s music, what are we left with?

By: jabramo

jabramo — Wed, 26 Jul 2006 02:17:53 +0000

I have to say that I’m absolutely ecstatic about the response this post has received! Contrary to my overstatements earlier in this thread, I see the perfect situation as one where students get to pick whatever way they want to create music. If they want to play the clarinet and play the Spohr Concerto, go for it, if they want to create beats and rap over it, awesome, they want to write intergral serialist pieces, fine. Now in the real world we have to acknowledge that most students will pick to engage in rap before Spohr or serialism (maybe this calls for a new type of serialist composer: Snoop Doggy Boulez is in the hiz-ouse), but there is never an outlet for those students. We cater to the minority, and partly to prop up our own musical tastes might I add. In reference to ESchlegal: laptops have made me question to binary construction of live/recorded music. If a musician has direct influence over recorded material, and can manipulate it in a variety of ways, isn’t that live? I think it is better to think to now think of live and recorded music on a continuum. BTW, I can think of may examples of being moved by computer music, most memorable being Silver Apples of the Moon, by Morton Subotnick (Part B, for me is particularly powerful). I hope there are many more comments to come, I’m enjoying this dialogue.

By: etobias

etobias — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 15:46:49 +0000

Joe thank you for raising the issue of whether or not traditional ensembles are worth keeping. I am assuming that when we are discussing traditional ensembles in this particular case we are talking about large ensembles in US schools that are limited to mainly Western European wind, percussion and string instruments. For a long time I took the traditional large ensemble model for granted, but after reflecting back on my own experiences in playing in them (which were positive) and teaching band I must say that I am in agreement with you. I am not advocating the end of acoustic instruments but definitely would like to see the inclusion of a much wider array of instruments and some major changes to the structure of ensembles in schools. Since a lot of the discussion has centered on instrumentation and timbre as reasons for changing traditional ensembles, I wanted to focus more on the structure of traditional large ensembles and why I think it would be positive to move instrumental music education in a different direction. Just a couple of thoughts I have that have led me to this thinking: - If creative thinking is to be a foundation of a music class, which it is for my teaching, the flexibility of a small ensemble or alternative grouping allows for the structure to be formed around creative and critical thinking rather than trying to squeeze creative and critical thinking into the structure of the large ensemble. - In a small alternative ensemble the power dynamics would probably be much different than the traditional large ensemble where a conductor stands in front of the group and more often than not dictates what the group will do. While the power dynamics of large ensemble could be shifted I think a smaller non-traditional ensemble would make it easier for a democratic approach towards learning and teaching music in an ensemble setting. - In my experiences going to concerts in New York City at venues such as Tonic, The Stone, Miller Theatre, Roulette, The Kitchen and other similar places, the majority of ensembles I have listened to are chamber groups. Groups like Bang on a Can, Ethel, So Percussion and various other interchanging groups have had a tremendous impact on the way I think about ensembles. Many individual musicians such as Susie Ibarra or Don Byron work on several different musical projects at the same time in various formations. It is rare that I ever see a concert or an advertisement for a concert for a large ensemble of wind and percussion instruments. The way these musicians in small ensembles communicate with one another and the process of practicing and performing are probably very different from that of our students in large ensembles. - I keep thinking about how many teachers of large ensembles use the “balance of instrumentation�?: as a reason for students to play certain instruments. How many times have students been encouraged to play one instrument or discouraged to play another in order for the band to be balanced so that typical literature can be performed. Byron Au Young’s article Ban The Piano! A 21st-Century Composition Manifesto gives an interesting perspective on instrumentation and many of the points he makes could inform the way we approach instrumental music education in the US. These are just a few points that need to be expanded and fleshed out. While MENC has published a book "Strategies For Teaching Specialized Ensembles," I think we have a long way to go to see this aspect of our field become more current. Logistics will always be an issue, but with some planning I’m sure a transition to small ensembles could be a reality. - I wonder what the implications are for a program that moves away from large ensembles as a focus and moves more towards string quartets, laptop ensembles, and electro-acoustic septets, rock bands, salsa bands or any other small flexible groupings. I look forward to seeing how this dialogue continues and expands over time.

By: eschlegel

eschlegel — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 05:09:14 +0000

As a teacher of instrumentalists, I have huge issues with the idea of entirely replacing traditional instrumental ensembels with computers, for a variety of reasons. First and foremeost, music cannot be called such without the human element required to produce artistic expression. Regardless of the era in which the chosen repertoire was composed, it was intended to be interpreted by a performer, not laid down as a perfect computerized track, unavailable for intrepretation. Until we can program computers to feel, they will be incapable of creating emotionally stirring musical performances, regardless of accuracy or moderninity of their sound production. When was the last time a live performance moved your soul? When was the last time you had a similar experience listening to music played by a computer? I’m not saying that computerized ensembles do not have a place in the 21st century music education classroom, but I am arguing that by eliminating the traditional performing ensembles, we eliminate the performing from the arts.

By: Joe Owens

Joe Owens — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 04:53:54 +0000

Interesting thought…(also a response to the January post on new instruments)
My younger brother (not at all a ‘musician’)just finished his first year at Notre Dame. I asked him “if you had to take one music class what would it be?”

His answer really got me thinking. He said “a class on what use of acoustics/science is involved in instrument making and how it has changed over the years.”
Wow… it had sounded like he thought about this before, (trust me, he hadn’t.)

In a similar conversation with a musician, the response mentioned music technology goals.

Have we professionals exhausted a physical (analog) exploration of acoustics, and finished our development of “real instruments and ensembles?”
Are we calling it quits with our traditional instruments?” It sure seems to be a daunting task to design and create a “manual” instrument, doesn’t it. I know I’d be afraid to.

There is far less risk involved in creating a digital instrument - if you don’t like what you hear, a simple drage to the virtual trash can and start over. No worries; it only cost time (spent wisely, I might add. After all, any time spent exploring is time spent wisely). However at the end of this experiment, you don’t have wasted scrap metal, wood or other materials.

I am obviously divided. Can techies and non-techies get along? Do techies have to be careful to avoid forming high culture vs. low culture oppositions or perceptions when dealing with those musicians take no interest in all things technology?

Other questions for thought - I agree that ensembles tend to discourage creativity, but… who said they have to? Isn’t it okay to learn together and create one final product?

Of course we should all (students included) have a creative outlet - but does that imply a stripping of the orchestra classes merits? After all, music can also be more than just “creativity” (?)

By: jabramo

jabramo — Sun, 23 Jul 2006 22:33:43 +0000

I agree with your observations. I agree with you “that the best way forward is to give all our students a range of practical musical experiences with a range of instruments within a range of ensemble settings.” I see computers as only one point on this range. I admittedly, but also consciously, overstated my belief in new technologies.

It is disturbing to hear that some teachers see laptops as a substitution to ‘real’ instruments.

Thanks for your comments, they have made me really think about these issues.